Harmon Solar Podcast
The solar energy sector in Arizona is currently oversaturated, which has led to a scarcity of transparency. In response, we've created a podcast to provide an honest perspective on going solar in the state. Join us as we explore the intricacies of utilities, equipment, processes, and more. Our primary objective is to educate and empower you to make informed decisions on your solar journey.
Harmon Solar Podcast
Let's Talk with Prevost Law Firm
Ever wonder what happens when those too-good-to-be-true solar promises fall apart? In this eye-opening conversation with attorney Neil Prevost, we pull back the curtain on the solar industry's shadowy side. Whether you're exploring solar options or already experiencing problems with your system, this conversation provides essential insights that could save you from becoming another cautionary tale.
Welcome to another edition of the Harman Solar Podcast. I'm Rob Fromano, vp of Sales and Marketing at Harman Solar, and with me, as always, is Mr Everything Ben Walschlager. See, I just left it there this time.
Speaker 2:You just left it there, no friend or anything. I just left it alone. I like it. So, Ben, we know what we're going to do today. This is a very special podcast slash Zoomcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is something that. I don't think anybody would want to do. We want to do it because of what we do.
Speaker 2:We always talk about the good, bad, the ugly in the industry, so let's talk about both of those.
Speaker 1:Right, so maybe you've been on Facebook or you've been on social media and you see these ads from Prevost Law Firm.
Speaker 2:It's funny because as soon as we started this podcast, I opened up my Facebook and sure enough it came up Came right up. Right, it's right there, Came right up.
Speaker 1:You see these ads from Prevost Law Firm helping people with solar that maybe got a bad deal or something bad went on, or maybe the installer is out of business. Whatever it is, we've been seeing these ads and so we've reached out to Neil. What we have today is Neil Prevost from Prevost Law Firm in the Dallas, texas, area.
Speaker 3:Neil, how are you doing? Thank you for joining us. I'm doing awesome. Thank you, guys for having me on.
Speaker 1:We are excited to have you on to get your perspective of what you're seeing in the industry. I know you're dealing with a lot of customers I'm assuming you're dealing with. I know you're dealing with people in Texas, yes, but I'm assuming you're dealing with people around the country.
Speaker 3:We are. There's four states. The state bar rules allow you to practice in a state temporarily, that is, without being licensed there and without an office there, if you're doing private arbitrations and mediations. There are four states that don't have that rule, and that's Florida, south Carolina, louisiana and California. So I could be in 46 states, but we're currently in about 10, mostly throughout the South and the Sun Belt Arizona, nevada, new Mexico, colorado, texas, oklahoma, georgia, south Carolina, north Carolina excuse me and then a smattering of Maryland, pennsylvania and a few others. But yeah, we're able to do it pretty much nationwide.
Speaker 1:I would say what you're focused on is you're probably talking about solar contract disputes, things like that, right?
Speaker 3:Most of our focus is on when the lender not the lender the seller has gone out of business and has left the customer holding the bag on a 10 to out. In y'all's area, the big one's Titan who gave a 25-year installation warranty, and so the customers are left. You know, 18 months in they're left holding the bag on 90% of the warranty. So most of my clients have had their solar installer go out of business.
Speaker 2:Wow yeah, we see that a lot. That's a big number.
Speaker 3:Think about it. It's Titan Pink Power. I mean there's lots and lots of folks that have gone out of business, which impresses me about y'all, because most people don't make it three years, and I think how long y'all been doing this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 50 years. This is our 50th anniversary.
Speaker 3:Okay. Well then I would say that y'all are beyond that danger zone of going out of business.
Speaker 1:Well, what we do different is we're more diversified, right, so residential solar is a part of our business.
Speaker 3:It's not our whole business Right.
Speaker 1:We do commercial solar, we do commercial electrical, we have a service industry.
Speaker 3:I got you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's helped and that's why we've been around for so long, but it's a good point. One of our taglines is we've been around longer than our warranties, I mean, and no one else can say that.
Speaker 3:Absolutely that's, and that's a huge selling point. If, when consumers especially the old, the disabled, the people on fixed incomes they're buying solar in order to fix their expenses over time, and even if they just get into it at a breakeven circumstance, it's okay, then because as the price of electricity goes up over time, they save more and more money and they've fixed their expenses. The difficulty comes when their seller goes out of business and all of a sudden they're responsible for replacing three panels or 10 panels or three, or a new inverter or a new micro inverter or whatever. Whatever goes out, you know they then bear that expense and they can't afford it. So it's especially these warranties are especially important to the people who are on fixed incomes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we get a lot of those calls because in our industry, as you mentioned, a lot of companies have gone out of business. So they, you know, they go on Google and they type in you know solar companies in Arizona and pop up and they, that's their complaints. They say, hey, my company went out of business, I don't know about my warranties or something's not working, my bills are high, can help. So obviously we feel those calls but we have to have that heart to heart with them. Say, like you know, we can take care of, like the manufacturer, warranties on the equipment, but as far as your workmanship warranty, from your installer yeah, I'm sorry but that's there that's they're out of luck.
Speaker 3:yeah, well, and and see. Now that is where I would come in, because the holder rule, which is what I sue under, I generally sue only the lenders and there's a rule, there's a little piece of you know words, there's a paragraph in each one of these contracts that says that the lender can be sued for the sins of the seller if you will, and you can hold them accountable for that. Now, all that you don't get cold hard cash. You get a credit against the balance of the loan, but like, let's say, some I had one. They wanted $3,000 to replace three panels, which may or not be an outrageous amount, I don't know for sure. That might be perfectly fine.
Speaker 1:That seems right.
Speaker 3:It's very high. Okay, Well, that was what the quote was and I said, well, look, all we can do is, if you pay the money, I can then petition to have you know you get credit for that on the loan. And that was about as good as we could do. But yeah, it leaves them really high and dry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm sure you have lots of horror stories in this industry.
Speaker 3:Well, the good ones don't call me, I only hear the bad ones, right, if they love it. My phone doesn't ring.
Speaker 2:Right, your best case scenario is I don't ever want to hear from you again yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:So are you? Would you say that most of the people that are reaching out to you it's because of the example. Like you said, titan, out of business, things like that. That's your number one.
Speaker 3:Most of it. I mean, and look, the salespeople promise the improbable and then the consumers left to try to figure it out whether or not they're telling the truth. And so, you know, someone knocks on your door. They come to the door and say, hey, how would you like to never pay another electricity bill, and of course that sounds great. So then the whole deal starts and you know, three or four hours later they've signed a contract for $40,000 or $50,000 to install solar on their house. And I think a lot of people I hear from a lot of people when they realize that the UCC lien has to be paid when they sell their house. That's a big deal that a lot of people don't understand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to touch a little bit on. So you have a shady salesperson who comes and says, hey, you'll never pay a bill. What can the homeowner do legally? Because I know in the contract that they signed it doesn't say anything about savings or what their future bills are going to be like. But if the salesperson said it turns into a, he said she said thing, do homeowners have any ground to stand on when a salesperson says you'll never pay a bill, just sign here on the dotted line?
Speaker 3:Well, every state, including Arizona, has a deceptive trade practice statute and what those statutes do is I mean, if you go by the strict words of the contract, the contract says what it says. You know we're not making you any promises, we didn't. You know we're not giving any advice or anything like that. However, the statute makes it a violation of the statute if you misrepresent to the consumer the benefits or provisions of a contract. So it's a standalone lawsuit about what you said that doesn't have anything to do with the contract. So every state it's called the Deceptive Trade Practices Act. I think it's the Arizona Unfair Consumer UCP. I think that I'll look it up, but the you know Arizona has its own version of the act and it makes it actionable, and what I mean by that is you can sue if they lie to you about the effects of a contract and what you're signing, the effects of a contract and what you're signing. So yes, they've got, and you know it's pretty robust in most states including Arizona.
Speaker 2:And let me see what the statute of limitations is. I think every sales rep needs to hear that what you say can be held. You know. Absolutely, it can be used against you to court a law? Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's the Arizona Consumer Fraud Act, acfa, and that statute is what prohibits, you know, fraud and misrepresentation in the sale or advertisement of merchandise. You know false advertising, bait and switch tactics, misrepresenting a product's characteristics, all of that kind of stuff is I mean, it's even I mean it's a pretty broad state, even like altering the mileage on a vehicle's odometer is considered an unfair act. You know there's all kinds of things but bait and switch, misrepresentations, all of that. Oh, concealing or omitting material facts, you know that's failing to disclose information about the product or service or about the financing thereof. Or, you know, providing false assurances about about how it's going to work.
Speaker 2:A company went out of business. They come to us and say, hey, my salesperson said I would never have a bill, and now I have bills. I think something's wrong with my system. So it's like, well, I'll take a look at your system. But now I kind of have to resell it to them, even though it wasn't even our sale.
Speaker 3:I'm like, well, let me tell you the actual what's going to happen and what your bills should look like. And I'm sorry that they misled you, but here's the reality. And obviously they get mad, but it's like I don't want to tell you. Do you know what the number one response of most companies is? That y'all are clearly better than you know what their number one response is. What is it? Well, you didn't buy enough panels, Right, and they try. You would be amazed at how many of my clients bought a system let's say they bought an eight kilowatt system and then they say, well, it's not producing like it's supposed to. And they don't mention anything about all the other expenses and all the other reasons. They just say, oh well, you didn't get enough panels. We should have put a 10 or a 12 kilowatt system. So we just need to come out and put more panels. And you'd be amazed at how many times people buy that and actually make a secondary purchase when the first one didn't work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I get those too. People will call in with add-on systems and I take a look at it. And I actually just turned somebody down last week because I think they were still getting a bill and they said I think I need more panels. I have the roof space for it. I took a look at their utility bills, all their information, and I said you don't need more. It's going to cause more harm than good. You don't need more. Okay, what about a battery? You don't need a battery either, but what you're doing is fine. Well, I've got quotes from these two other companies saying that I need more. How much?
Speaker 3:do I get paid?
Speaker 2:when I tell you no.
Speaker 3:Exactly, that's right. Well, I'll tell you something I share with you, something I always tell clients when I'm trying to give them advice, and it's like not to file a suit or not to do this or not to do that Anytime a lawyer gives you advice that is taking money out of his pocket, you should listen. And the same is true with you If you've got a solar installation company who is telling you don't do it. You need to listen because you know they're clearly giving you advice that is in your best interest, you know. I mean, if you're sitting there saying, oh, you got to. Oh, you're right, you got space, let's do another 10 pounds over here. Well, who's going to make money from that? Right, so that's. But that's a very good point, and people need to be told. You need to listen when I'm giving you advice that takes money out of my pocket.
Speaker 1:Yep, so true. I want to go back to the deceptive practice. You were talking about that so, and obviously I know you all know all this. But in the industry, when we were getting data from a customer, putting it into a proposal tool like you talked about Aurora Sola, whatever it is Sure and then it's giving its projection of what it thinks it can do for you based on that, yeah, so as a salesperson, I hand that, I hand the proposal to the customer. I go through it with them. Now, those proposals may or may not be right. I mean honestly. Honestly, it's it's looking at previous usage, but it doesn't know what usage is going to happen from here on out, how you're going to change your lifestyle can change.
Speaker 1:And so what you're originally selling them and if I'm trying to do an honest job and sell them based on what their history has been, it could change and maybe not work out the way we would hope it would, because they've changed. Do you ever run into that scenario? Because it's hard as a salesperson to then be held accountable to say I wasn't deceiving them. They changed the way they live and now it's not going to work out the way it should have worked out, the way we talked about at the kitchen table.
Speaker 3:I think that's a false argument on on their, on the side of the customer, and here's what I try to. Here's what I try to walk them through. Ok, let's say at the time you do the proposal, their average bill is $200 a month and that you're projecting $100 a month savings. Ok, let's say you're going to cut their bill in half. Ok, well then they add a new bedroom and a pool and a hot tub, all electric, you know, no gas, we're going to go all electric and their bill goes up to $300 a month. But the reality is, if they still save the $100,000, the question is, did they save the hundred a month you told them they would save? Right, and if they saved the hundred a month that you told them they would save, then you've done everything. You haven't misled them about anything. Now, when you say you'll never have another electricity bill, that's different.
Speaker 3:And they add the pool and the jacuzzi and the hot tub and the extra bedroom on the house, then they might have some room for it. But you have to say, well, when I said you'd never have another bill, I meant the bill you were paying at the time. I didn't mean you could grow weed in the garage with all the lamps that it takes to grow weed. I didn't expect you to start, you know, boiling meth in the back, I mean. So you see what I'm saying. I just need some reality about. We were talking about the bills you were paying at the time and and here's what I told you I thought we could do and and you know I'm sure that Charles proposals will have sort of like a percentage offset, yeah, yeah, percentage offset. And now I want to be candid with you. I'll tell you where I think salespeople get in trouble on Solo and Aurora and some of the other tools, tools.
Speaker 3:I think they put too big a number in the projected savings, because there's an internal number that you can put into your proposal tool about how much the annual increase is going to be in your electricity cost. If a salesperson puts 4%, that number is going to look astronomically huge. They're going to look like they're the smartest people in the whole world. And in Texas they generally put 2.9. And I think that's high. I went over 15 years in Texas and the average is 2.2 increase. So if you're going to be completely honest and transparent with your customers, you need to kind of talk with them about that assumption. That is an assumption in GoSolo that it's 2.9, I think Maybe that's implemented by each sales organization. I don't know whether that's an.
Speaker 3:API that y'all can adjust it definitely is something that the sales company controls.
Speaker 1:All I would say to that is if you do, take a look back, you're right, you're not going to see these four and 5% increases typically over 20 years. But if you look at the last five years in some of these utilities I think you will see those numbers. We've seen them in Arizona. All of a sudden now it's 5%, 8%, 10% that they're doing Doesn't mean you sit there and project out that they're going to do 10% over the next 20 years. I think that's where a four or 5% escalator actually is realistic. But you're right, you have to have that conversation with that customer at the table and say the number is this in the proposal and it's based on what we've seen over the last few years. But if you were to go back 20 years you're not going to see that number because they didn't move up utilities up high at all in the last 15, 18 years.
Speaker 3:And we don't know in all fairness, we don't know what the impact is going to be. I don't know whether y'all have been looking at all this stuff about AI and the amount of electricity burned by AI. Bill Gates is building a nuclear plant. Did you know that?
Speaker 2:No Up in like.
Speaker 3:Wyoming or someplace. Bill Gates is putting his own private nuclear reactor to build an AI farm. You know so even if we are the most oil rich country in the world, which I think we are. Yep, there is a possibility that we can't make enough is a possibility that we can't make enough If we really want to be the leaders in AI. If y'all look at what they're building and the demands that that's going to take, it may negate all the savings that we get by lowering oil to 60 bucks a barrel.
Speaker 1:The other thing that I would say as an installer, the one thing that I know that I can control is how the system produces right. That that's our big focus as an installer is we want to make sure that what we install on your roof produces as we said it would, because that's really our responsibility.
Speaker 3:And that's all you can do.
Speaker 1:Now, if somebody has a tree that grows or different things that happen, I don't control that Right and I would argue that with any customer. I'd go to court and argue that.
Speaker 3:But other than that, as long as that system is doing what, it's unfair for them to then believe that they're going to pay zero Right right, because as long as there's and I'll tell you I've gotten into I've left body parts with Goodleap over this issue. Okay, the issue is it's producing everything we said it would produce. While that might be true, the salesperson also promised that it produced everything it would produce. Their electricity bill would be $20 a month and it's still 70. So as long as you can accurately describe to the client what that amount of production is going to turn into in savings and I think a professional salesperson knows who their provider is, knows what those rates of reimbursement are and they're honest about them and they build a system that's the right size and the right sort of the sweet spot for that client to get the maximum benefit for the dollar spent. And you know I just try to get people where they're breaking even.
Speaker 1:Right, if they're breaking.
Speaker 3:Even now, then over 20 years they're more than likely to save a bunch of money.
Speaker 2:Yeah what I tell salespeople and customers that 100% offset doesn't mean 100% offset of your bill. It's 100% energy offset of your historical usage. So I've even seen a 200% offset and people still have a utility bill. Small one it'd be small, right, small one, but it's still there. They'd still have one, yeah, yeah, because it's not an offset of your bill, it's an offset of your energy usage.
Speaker 3:But here's what I want to let you know. Y'all are already, in my book, far more honest than most of the salespeople that I see, because they've never mentioned any of that. And we have sort of minimum fees in Texas. They're about a third of the bill and you can only reduce a bill in Texas by two thirds. So if someone's paying 300 a month on average, it's the lowest it could be. If you're producing 100% and the buyback is the, you know the highest rate you could get, the most you could save would be 200 a month on your bill in Texas. And so it's very important that customers understand what they're getting into, and I think a lot of them would be okay if they can break even or make a little now, if they've got a good warranty. What is y'all's installation warranty?
Speaker 1:So we do. We have a. We're actually good warranties. We have a 25 year workmanship warranty because we feel like we'll be around, we're not going anywhere. Right, we give a roof penetration warranty, so three inches around the penetration. We actually give a 30 year warranty, okay.
Speaker 3:And then we do that. Are y'all using solar insurer? Y'all doing that yourself?
Speaker 1:No, no, no, we do it all in house.
Speaker 3:Y'all in house.
Speaker 1:Well, that's fantastic, that's a great we read what solar insurer offers and we feel it's kind of deceptive a little bit. It's based on, really, their manufacturer warranties that they already have. Need solar insurer, right. So we got away from that and we said you know, we, we, we trust, we trust our process, we trust what we're doing, we're going to warranty our work we feel will last and if we go out there to install it and we do the inspection and we feel that I can't meet that and we, you know in Phoenix, right. So we, we're, our roofs are different here.
Speaker 3:We have a lot of concrete tile underlayment things like that, but we know if it's good underlayment that we can put that penetration on there and it'll last.
Speaker 3:And if it doesn't, we'll take care of it. That's our work. That's basically what we offer. I would tell anybody listening that that is so far superior to anything, these fly-by-night companies. If you're buying from somebody who hadn't been in business five to 10 years, you are really risking a lot. You know and you know it's well, it's just true.
Speaker 3:Look, I've been in business 30 years. For the first five I was afraid every pay period that I wasn't going to make payroll. And at some point as a business person, you get past all that and you got yourself a good little business and you know you're going to make payroll and all that you know. And 480 payrolls later. I seem to. You know, I've seemed to have been able to cover my nut Right, nut right and, but y'all are the same way 50 years. That's a great achievement and uh, uh, I would if I were y'all, I would just really use that as a sales point, because ask anyone with a titan energy, uh, titan solar power warranty what that's worth to them now, and I think, I think they think they would really wish that y'all had sold it to them instead of Titan.
Speaker 1:You know, I think, part of the problem. I mean, yes, the consumer can be the victim, but I think sometimes the consumer can also make themselves the victim because they're so focused on. I'm going to listen to this sales guy and this pie in the sky stuff he's telling me versus what, for instance, harmon tells them reality. Well, he says he can do this. He says he can do that, I can get this. If that's what you want to do, go ahead and do it, but I'm telling you reality. This is. I'm telling you what it's going to really look like. So they get that, they get into that situation and then we hear from them later down the road where they're upset because now they feel like they've been scammed. Yeah, I guess that's at that point when they come to you. So my question is how many people? I'm sure you're talking to people that you looked at them and I would think maybe you don't say it, but what were you thinking Like? Why would you? Why would you even believe something like that?
Speaker 1:You know, it's too good to be true theory, right.
Speaker 3:Well, and and I don't know what it is about the sales process people get in and they just want to believe them. Right, you know, they they just because I think I think people have a hard time admitting if they've been gotten over on they, really because they think it looks bad on them that they were stupid or they were this or they were that and look, they were just deceived, and. But it's hard for a lot of people to admit that or to even go back and question and they just, they just don't believe you when you tell them the truth. It's really weird, but it it happens.
Speaker 1:Sure, I can imagine the looks you must get sometimes. I can only imagine the stares and looks you get sometimes when you're, when you're educating, right, are you sure?
Speaker 3:Hey, look, and, and I was trying to look up, I was trying to look up real quick a couple of uh, uh, you know, arizona contracts for some of my clients. Uh, because I was going to see what kind of rate people are paying, you know, on the seven OK sales price per watt four point six, three, four dollars and sixty three cents a watt.
Speaker 2:Now let me ask you anything in a contract where they added things like batteries or there's no adders.
Speaker 3:This is. This is a cash or finance oh, that was financed through, you know, my favorite lender, um, and it was, oh, it's only a 6.8 watt system yikes solar edge it had. It had the QP 400s. I mean it was good, and K2 racking hardware so I mean it wasn't bad. But it's 17 panels. But the the sales price was $4 and 63 cents a kilowatt hour and that just buries the client so deep in the in the process there's no way they were ever making any money from the beginning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, especially in Arizona when we're seeing an average you know about $250, $260, you start talking almost double that, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they never had a chance. You would be amazed at how many clients I have that are buried at that. Four and over four, four and a half. Now when it gets to five, it's just ridiculous or stupid. But let me see if there were any adders. There were no adders to this deal. That's just 17 panels with the inverters, microinverters and K2 racking. Yeah, fort Mojave, arizona, how far is that? I don't know where that's at.
Speaker 1:That's SolarEdge. That's an outskirt, the travel outskirt was really high.
Speaker 3:And is Hanwha a good brand? Hanwha, yeah, they are. Yeah, they're some of the good panels, but still, I think you're paying an absolute premium for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, the equipment sounds good, just the price doesn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah no, the price doesn't at all.
Speaker 2:What is your process? So you have a homeowner who feels like they've gotten taken advantage. They have a contract Installer may or may not be in business anymore. They just say, hey, I think I've gotten taken advantage. Do I have a case? What is your process to kind of vet these?
Speaker 3:Well, we go to we obviously they, through either social media or whatever, they find us. They get to our website, solarpanelreliefcom, and we just schedule an intake interview with them, and I've got a staff of 38. I mean, it's a pretty big operation and we have highly trained people to screen, talk, to answer their questions and try to figure out whether or not we think they've got a case. And we ask a lot of questions. We want to know how did it happen? How did the sales process happen? Did you sign on your computer or the tablet of the salesperson? You know, how did that? Did you? Were you given an effective opportunity to even read the contract before you signed it? Were you told of a cash price? Were you told that you know you might be paying a substantial fee to the lender just to make the loan? Those are the questions. And then, what were you promised? What? What savings were you promised? And then what?
Speaker 3:In in reality, though, what did you get? And so just, these are just sort of qualifying questions. We ask to figure out whether or not we think we can help them, and if we think we can take their case, we do get them to pay a small. Well, small is a relative term. It's a lot of money to a lot of people. So we get about $2,500 plus the filing fee from the client, and then we the rest of it's on a contingency. If, if the, if we don't win, we don't get any more than than that and but that's, that's the process. So we have a pretty lengthy you know, we want to review the contracts, we want to review the correspondence and emails. So if we take the case, we're pretty certain that we can prevail?
Speaker 2:And how often do you find, after you've done all that you know, vetting for the homeowner that the solar company did everything ethically and you basically have to turn them away?
Speaker 3:Almost never, never, almost, never, never, almost never.
Speaker 2:That's priceless. That's what my initial thought was Said no one ever. It never happens yeah.
Speaker 3:No, and look, we've got and this is kind of an interesting deal because there are a lot of systems that perform exactly as sold and these are the ones that the lenders have a hard time settling with this on, because it performs exactly as it was sold, but it's at $5 a kilowatt hour and they're losing money and they've never made any money ever. They're losing money and they've never made any money ever. Now I will tell you this I've run into a few of those that come to find out when we start asking a few questions. They put 10 or 15 grand in their pocket when they did the deal and so we don't take those. That's just. One guy said hey, it was 2% money.
Speaker 2:I wanted all I could get out of it. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:he got a personal loan with his soul, and now you're right he's he, he paid like almost six bucks a kilowatt hour and I'm thinking what in the world? Then come to find out they they'd under the table paid him like half the commission or something on the day, I don't know, it was crazy refinanced his house with that going down that road real quick.
Speaker 1:So I mean, obviously I've seen that scenario. But how about the scenario where somebody is also, if in the loan they're financing windows or financing an HVAC system, I mean that cost is going to negatively impact what you know. So that that's got to be a different way of looking at it for you. I'm sure I'm sure you've run into that but that is great.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean we, we have to. If you have to be realistic, if they're buying other stuff like windows and HVAC and all that stuff, you have to just sort of carve that off, cause guess what? They got the HVAC and they got the windows. Right, you know, they got those. So that adds. And also, I mean I had one, uh, one Arizona client that he'd gotten the $19,000 tax rebate, so the lender, but it never worked, it never got PTO and I mean it was just horrible nightmare. But the lender wrote it down to the $19,000 because, in all fairness, my client got that money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he put it in his hip pocket and he chose not to put it on the loan.
Speaker 3:So we wrote it down to 19,000 and turned the panels off and so he was kind of even.
Speaker 1:To that point. You make a really good point there. How many times have you talked to somebody where they've got a loan and they just don't put that tax credit into the loan so that payment goes up, and all of a sudden they're shocked? Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's a common thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we got to give them a good dose of reality because, look, when I go into an arbitration, I've got an arbitrator and I've got a very capable defense counsel on the other side and I can't let my clients labor under the illusion that if they got that money and didn't put it on the loan, that nobody's going to notice. They're going to notice. So I prepare them for that and we even tell. If that's what happened at the beginning of the proceeding we say, even though we'd like to write down the loan in its entirety, we realize that my client got $8,000, $9,000, $13,000, whatever that number is. So we realize that that amount is going to have to stay on the loan.
Speaker 1:Is there an argument for a customer saying that was never explained to me? I don't have a tax liability, Therefore I couldn't take advantage of that, and the company took advantage of me by thinking the payment was going to be lower when it went higher.
Speaker 3:That happens all the time, especially on those. Ok, because this client has given me permission to use her name, I'll just call it Patricia. I won't give you her last name. Patricia bought a system that was like $30,000 or $40,000. They promised her a 30% tax rebate, that they were going to get a check and she'd be able to put it down on the loan which she was going to do. Here's the problem. As y'all know, it's a tax credit. If you don't pay tax, then you're not going to get the credit. Patricia is disabled and makes exactly $1,179 a month as her. My gosh. The salesperson lied on the application and said she made $80,000, which she never saw. The application right, Wow. He just filled it out for her and they sent it in and said here, click here, click here. So she gets approved for this loan, and it doesn't make any sense. Then the installer was Encore. Did y'all have Encore out here, out in Arizona, I think?
Speaker 3:they were out here for a while, yeah, and E-N-C-O with some kind of accent or whatever. Anyway, they promptly go under, don't finish the installation, don't get PTO and the lender's wanting this money from her, and it was just terrible. And so we were able to just get hers completely wiped out and some attorney's fees and everybody goes away and all that. That salesperson is horrible. Yeah, I've got to leave it to the deity to get back at that one.
Speaker 1:You know, I agree because it's just totally unfair.
Speaker 3:They knew. I said, Patricia, did you tell them how much you make? She said absolutely. I told them eleven hundred and seventy nine dollars a month. And when I got the application, once we filed the claim, I got the application and said eighty thousand000, which was just nowhere near reality. Wow, so she was never getting that tax money.
Speaker 2:It's unfortunate that you hear those stories because you know it's a bad name for legitimate companies as well. You know, I can't help people like no, no, no, that was their situation with their company, their salespeople. That's not the whole industry, that's just one bad apple Right.
Speaker 3:Well, I think, as an industry, y'all are going to have to go. I mean y'all, but I mean the industry. There's going to have to be a purging. I don't know if you remember the subprime debacle back in the 2007, 8, nine that led the movie the big short and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3:Yep, all I can tell you is is that the stuff that the solar panel sellers have been doing in 22 and 23 would make the subprime loan lenders blush.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, because it was so shameful of what they were actually doing, what they were promising and the way they were lying to people. And so I feel like my job is to take what happened in 21, 22, 23, and just sort of flush that out of the system. And then on the other side is going to have to emerge a more honest, more transparent group of vendors that are going to deal more correctly with the consumer. And I applaud y'all and would say y'all been there 50 years, you're not going anywhere, you're not going to ruin your reputation over a quick buck. Y'all are going to try to do it right, and that's what I would really recommend for consumers that they try to find in their area or their service area is someone of a long-term investment in the community that's going to be there for them and, like clearly y'all are, and I think that it says a lot for y'all.
Speaker 1:We appreciate that and it's it's hard. Right, we work hard to do the right thing and we lose a lot of business because we do the right thing. But you're right, this is a tough business because there's so much bad out there that's taking advantage of people. Because this is a quick, a quick buck business, right, people can make a lot of money. Yeah, that have never made that kind of money before selling solar. And they do it the wrong way and we fight it every day. It's why we started this podcast, having you on here and just kind of talking about some of the horror stories. It's it's important. It validates everything we've been saying for the last two years and everything we tell every customer we have, I mean solar. Solar can be so good for people. It can save you a lot of money. It's one of our taglines. It's not for everybody, but you should always take a look. Sure, we truly believe that, because we believe there's a benefit to solar for a lot of people.
Speaker 3:But for some people it's just not. Yeah, and I think people need to know that, even as a law firm, that I'm out there, you know, trying to get people out of these contracts all day, every day. I believe in solar and at a perfect and at the right price, and we you know we discussed that earlier at the right price, you know, I think it's great and y'all are. Y'all are well within the price point that makes solar work and it's just, you know, you can't sell y'all's product for double what y'all are selling it for and the consumer have a chance but what y'all are selling it for. It seems to me that the consumer gets a fair deal, Y'all make a fair profit and everybody can be happy.
Speaker 2:That's.
Speaker 3:America.
Speaker 2:I always tell people we have too much to lose. We have to be ethical. You know we have too much to lose. We have to be ethical. You know we have over 100 employees. You know we're a family-owned company. We're a name that's been around in arizona for forever. We have to be ethical. You know, um, and you know you get these.
Speaker 3:We got too much to lose yeah you're joe schmo, solar, and you're it's two guys in a truck right and, and you know, throwing some stuff up there and they're not even licensed and I take it y'all have to get permits. Yes, y'all would be amazed at how many systems were thrown up on roofs and they did not even get a permit. And because the market is deregulated here, they could actually get PTF. Wow, the electricity provider did not make them show, they just came out and did their own little inspection. They do for PTO. Yeah, they came out and did that inspection and didn't even ask for the green cards. So people have functioning systems and did that inspection and didn't even ask for the green cards.
Speaker 1:So people have functioning systems with PTO on the roof and no permit you have some areas that don't require permits, though, right, I mean, I think there are some yeah yeah, you're extraterritorial.
Speaker 3:You're out in the county, out in the country. Y'all probably do too, but you know, in general, you need to get a permit and it needs to be a licensed electrician, right, yeah?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, you'd be amazed at how much of it's just put up out here by people who think, oh, this is easy, and they, I mean, it's really a mess sometimes.
Speaker 2:I tell people we're not perfect, we're going to make mistakes and Ralph and I know we do make mistakes. The difference between us and other companies is we're not going to point the finger at somebody else and say, no, it was your fault, your fault, we'll own up to it. We'll say, yeah, we made a mistake, but we're going to fix it.
Speaker 1:We're going to take care of it. Yeah, I can tell you situations where we we had some dealers that were selling for us, you know, and maybe somebody wasn't as ethical as they should have been at the kitchen table and obviously I'm not at the table so we can't control that but we try to vet them the best we can to make sure we have ethical companies working with us. I think we do. We do a good job of that. But sometimes when it gets by and our owner has stepped in and, you know, made it right for a customer that maybe wasn't getting the best deal, where we turned down and gave them, let's say, ten thousand dollars to help because it was the wrong thing done to them right because we don't want our name attached to that, because that's not what we're about.
Speaker 1:so we try to do the right thing and make it right for that customer. I mean, we've even come to a point where we've taken a system off a house because it just wasn't a good fit for that person.
Speaker 3:Right, right so and I'd close to you a lot in the short run, but in the long run it'll make you a lot of money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you got to do the right thing, you know, if you're not doing the right thing, I don't know how you sleep at night, yeah.
Speaker 2:I couldn't do it, so what? What else you got? Well, let's take a look-see here. We told you we'd hit on everything without even trying.
Speaker 3:Well, we've been around the bush a bunch.
Speaker 2:We've talked about this a lot with picking solar companies to go with, installers to go with, what are red flags to look out for. But I don't want people to just take our words for it, because we are a solar company. In your opinion, what are some red flags that homeowners should look out for, because we are a solar?
Speaker 3:company. In your opinion, what are some red flags that homeowners should look out for? Oh, I think it's the urgency, the false urgency. They come in and say, oh, you got to do this today. Rates are going up, the special is going to expire. I would just advise anybody don't do anything on the first time they come to your house. You need to price comparison. You need to shop. You know you need to price comparison. You need to shop. You need to maybe get a second opinion. You need to ask about the financing and find out what. If you can get it financed yourself or you can pay cash, what would the price be? I look at longevity. I do. I would really look at how long they've been in business Like y'all have been around 50 years, how long y'all been doing solar Since 2008. Ok, 17 years in solar.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's three or four companies that started solar in Arizona. We are one of them.
Speaker 3:Right, ok, well, that's, and so I would look at those things and I think y'all check all the boxes, but that's what I would say, because there's actually a chance that y'all will actually be there for the full 25 years of your warranty, whereas you know, I wouldn't do business with anybody who hasn't been in business at least as long as their warranty. Wow, you know, if you got a 25 year warranty, I'd like to know that the company's been in business 25 years, right, and now look, I know my sons are in the installation and that's how I got involved in all this and they give a 10 year workmanship warranty and they've been in business five.
Speaker 1:But I know that they're going to deliver on their, on their promise you know, okay, those are good, those are good points, yeah, yeah, those are a lot of things that we talked about, I mean. So you're just aligning with everything we've been saying for for you know a couple of years, but it's nice to hear it from somebody that's dealing with people that didn't think about these things and what happens and y'all would never do this, but there's just such opportunity for fraud in this business.
Speaker 3:You know, I can told you. The one that I told you about was the hanwha 400s. You know, I've seen people buy 400s and they and they what shows up out on the on the roof is 278s. Whoa, you know. And because how does the customer ever know what you've actually put on their roof?
Speaker 1:yeah, you wouldn't it's true.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there are there, and there's a huge price differential and there's a huge production differential, yeah, between between those. So if you, if you're not dealing with an honest operator, there's about a million ways they can hit you for an unfair situation.
Speaker 2:That's definitely shady, because even the electrical drawings show what module you're using, has the cut sheets on it and everything.
Speaker 1:So if you don't install something else, and it's not like the inspector is going to go on the roof and start looking at the panels.
Speaker 3:Yeah, whoever compares the invoice to what's on the roof.
Speaker 1:Right, I haven't on the roof Right.
Speaker 3:I haven't heard that one. Wow, oh yeah, we've had them show up with and they said what are the ones that are made in America? There's somebody that they're American-made. I think they're made in San Antonio.
Speaker 1:Texas, there's Mission, there's QCell.
Speaker 3:Okay, either one of those they put in the contract we're going to be, you know, texas, we're going to be the US, it's going to be Mission or whatever, and it just shows a completely, you know, korean or Chinese brand of it. But the customer has no way of really knowing Right that. So there's a lot of bait and switch that goes on, that I've seen, and that's just flat out fraud and misrepresentation and all that. Those are easy to win. You got a contract that says it's going to be Mission 400s and it's Hanwha 278s.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that's an easy one, I would assume.
Speaker 3:Yeah, those are easy, those are easy, but look guys it sounds like to me y'all are doing all the right things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good segue to a question I did want to ask what's your biggest horror story where you look at a case and you're like this, just, you know, eats me up inside?
Speaker 3:Well, I told you about Patricia. Okay, let me tell. Yeah, here's the worst one ever, though let's just call him Billy. Okay, billy lived in Longview, texas. Billy had a 14 by 40 foot single wide trailer home that he lived in for 15 years. Billy was 73 years old, $2,100 a month of social security income, hadn't paid taxes in you know a good 18 years, or something like that.
Speaker 3:They came out and put 31 panels on a 14 by 40 foot single wide trailer for $73,000. Okay, wow, billy gets in trouble trying to make the payments on everything because they don't produce anywhere near what they're supposed to, and he gets behind and he loses the land and the and the trailer home to foreclosure. Oh, wow, so they have now hauled off his trailer with his 31 solar panels on top of it, and he lost the land and the trailer and the panels all to the bank that repossessed the trailer, and so I put Billy in a bankruptcy and just got rid of all of it. But that's the worst one. And they promised him that twenty one thousand dollar rebate check, which never came. Yeah and uh, you know the, the house, the trailer home, was probably only worth 30 grand, 40 grand maybe, and they put seventy three thousand dollars worth of panels on a mobile home.
Speaker 2:That's the worst.
Speaker 3:I actually think that was elder abuse and I'm actually going to talk to the district attorney in that county about his case. It was awful.
Speaker 1:Gosh, that leaves me speechless. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:When you asked me what was the worst one, I said you hit it, man.
Speaker 2:That's a whole book, I'm sure that salesperson is, you know, sipping margaritas on a beach in Cancun? Oh, I'm sure. And look man.
Speaker 3:I'll call them the solar bros. That are the guys that go around selling these and doing all their blitzes and driving their Maybachs and their Bentleys yeah, they're Maybach's and they're, they're Bentley's. Those guys have a special place that the deity is going to reserve for them, in my opinion. But that is. That is not my fight. But look, we sue the lenders because these sales organizations are really nothing more than conduits for commissions. You know, y'all are different. Y'all have a real business. Y'all have, like you say, 100 employees and a real electrical contracting business. If you look at most of these solar sales organizations, they've got an executive suite, everybody's remote. There's nobody that really works there. There's no real assets. There's no that really works there. There's no real assets. There's no physical location. They're subbing all the work to other people. They're just a sales organization.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah you know solar sales bros inc is not a real company. It's just they're getting and every month they get their commissions in and they spend 110 of what those commissions are yeah you know, I.
Speaker 2:I remember I had a uh, I had someone reach out that wanted to to work here to be a salesperson. I don't know if I ever told you this, but I had to turn her down. I was like no, it's not going to be a fit, because the way that she came across she's like I drive a Maserati, I have two other cars and I have my home and two vacation homes in California. I'm going to be your best salesperson. I need the lowest red line. I was like I don't want to even talk to you anymore. You're not going to be a good fit for this company. That's great. You might be the best solar salesperson in the world, but not with us. Go somewhere else.
Speaker 3:And you know what's so sad? There's 15 people willing to hire, right, there's people lined up to hire that person and she doesn't drive a Maserati by being honest, right, right.
Speaker 1:And look.
Speaker 3:I'm a free enterprise capitalist, right. I don't think wealth is a sign of bad character. But in that case, if they're selling solar and driving a Maserati with two lake homes and all that stuff, that's because they're just knocking people's heads off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and you could do well in this industry. If you're ethical, if you're honest, absolutely. You know you could do it.
Speaker 1:There are a lot of people that do well in this industry, ethically yeah.
Speaker 3:It's the tortoise versus the hare, right. I mean, the tortoise is slow and sure, but they finish the race and they do it with integrity and you know, at the end of the day y'all will make more money than they do. They make a whole lot in a short time and then they go to prison or they, you know, they wind up bankrupt or they wind up in you know a bad spot because they got greedy. And if y'all do it the right way, you can still do great. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't mind. Fair price for fair profit, right.
Speaker 1:Right? No, I agree, I think we're on the same page. Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm glad you guys reached out to me.
Speaker 2:Us too. Yeah, so how can people reach out to you? Or, if they do feel like they need a case, what documents do they need? How do they contact you? Things like that.
Speaker 3:They can just go to solarpanelreliefcom that's our primary website or theprevolawfirmcom either one and they can schedule an appointment. It's all we do. We don't do anything other than solar panel cases. I got rid of my last commercial litigation case last year and this is all we're involved in and we've got a really good team of people who can help them. Very responsive. We answer our phone calls. You know we're pretty responsive and we'll let them know if we think we have a case or not. And you know we're not doing it in all states right now.
Speaker 2:Is y'all's podcast going be mostly arizona or where it goes everywhere yeah, goes everywhere, okay, well harman solar is arizona based, but the podcast is national perfect, okay, well, we'll, we'll look at anything you know.
Speaker 3:but and look, even if we can't help them, we can at least give them some advice about where they can go and what they can do, and and we try to be helpful either way, even if they don't wind up, you know, becoming clients Awesome.
Speaker 1:Neil, it was an absolute pleasure meeting you and talking to you. What you're doing is so important and just keep that up, and we, we support what you're doing a hundred percent.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you, guys, and and I really meant it yeah, I believe y'all are the kind of people that people need to do business with, so you, get my hearty recommendation for sure.
Speaker 1:Next time I'm in that Dallas area I'm going to come look for you.
Speaker 3:Hey, let's go. I'll buy you some barbecue. I'll show you what real barbecue is like. I love it. I'll be there, All right guys.
Speaker 1:Thank you, man.
