Harmon Solar Podcast
The solar energy sector in Arizona is currently oversaturated, which has led to a scarcity of transparency. In response, we've created a podcast to provide an honest perspective on going solar in the state. Join us as we explore the intricacies of utilities, equipment, processes, and more. Our primary objective is to educate and empower you to make informed decisions on your solar journey.
Harmon Solar Podcast
Let's Talk Deceptive Sales Tactics
Navigating the solar marketplace can feel like walking through a minefield of misleading claims and high-pressure tactics. From "free solar" promises to salespeople pretending to represent your utility company, deceptive practices have unfortunately become commonplace in an industry that should be focused on transparency and sustainability. Ralph and Ben draw from years of frontline experience to expose the most common solar sales deceptions.
The solar energy market has become increasingly saturated, leading to widespread misinformation and a lack of transparency. Welcome to the HarmanSolar podcast, offering a straightforward, honest perspective on going solar. Each episode dives into key topics to help you better understand the industry. Our goal is to educate and empower you to make informed decisions about solar energy. While solar may not be the right fit for everyone, we believe everyone should take the time to explore it. Our mission is to increase your knowledge, not your bills.
Speaker 2:Welcome to another edition of the Harmon Solar Podcast. I'm Rob Romano, vp of Sales and Marketing at Harmon Solar, and with me, as always, my co-host, ben Walschlager. You guys know him as mr everything ben how you doing ben good it's good to be here.
Speaker 3:I don't see you a lot lately, I know, because you're not in the office.
Speaker 2:Start coming to the office, you'll see me all right, ben, today it's just me and you just you. Yeah, you and I me and you us just the two of us all right, I'm not gonna sing on this. All right, and today's a great topic it's an important topic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree, we've showed on this a long time ago. We've talked about it actually a few times yeah, a few bits and pieces here and there but now we've decided why don't we just do a whole podcast on it?
Speaker 2:you know, I think you know you went on you had mentioned some places that were online I'm not going to go into where but, uh, you had mentioned that you had seen some stuff online, people that were actually talking about the way they do things, and so so we decided I started watching this, going, wow, this is horrendous. We should do a deceptive, a deceptive, um, a deceptive podcast. We should do a deceptive podcast.
Speaker 3:It's very deceptive sales tactics.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we wanted to look at sales tactics that maybe aren't the most true, right, a little, you know, a little deceptive. So, and there's actually I was shocked there's places online that they actually teach people how to be deceptive they do.
Speaker 3:They teach them what to say, how to get people to sign. Doesn't matter if you're lying or not, get them to sign here today, things like that. It's all about close, close, close. I was floored when I saw that online. I'm like how do you do that online? I don't know, how do you do that online? I don't know how do you leave that room and feeling ready to go and not just scummy?
Speaker 2:There's a big place and guys out of Texas that are doing it and some other places, and I'm just like, wow, this has got to be exposed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I don't want to say I get it, or in their defense because no, it is scammy. But you know, a lot of these are like you know, door to door people or like cold calling people, things like that. If I came to your door, knocked on your door and trying to sell you solar, you'd probably shut the door right in my face. I would Right and you would shut the door just because you saw me. But you do that because you're like I don't want to hear another solar sales pitch, but at the same time you don't know who you're talking to. We're a legitimate company. We're a reputable company. We do the right things. I'm a legitimate person.
Speaker 3:Yes, as a salesperson, I can set my own commission. But I'm not going to do that to take advantage of someone and make a $50,000 commission on a 7KW system. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to do the right thing. But you, as the homeowner who's answering the door, you don't know that, right, you just see some guy selling solar, so you shut the door. So they have to come up with these weird tactics to get you to at least listen and sign and all that stuff. But in my opinion it's still wrong.
Speaker 2:You see some cowboy trying to sell you solar. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense, right, right, like what are you doing? What are you doing?
Speaker 3:Absolutely so we're going to expose some of this Right. But you know, should the homeowner be open to everyone who comes to their door or should the salesperson just be honest and ethical 100% of the time?
Speaker 2:Well, but here's the problem, right, and this is a good way for you to realize that you're being taken. You're falling into their little trap. A lot of times, when someone will start talking to you about solar, you won't even know they're talking about solar, right, you have no clue. They're talking about solar, until you realize you just bought a solar system Until.
Speaker 3:I sign on to that line. I've seen that, yeah, because homeowners know, when I hear the word solar, what do I do? Shut the door?
Speaker 2:Nope, not doing it, I don't think this is on your list, but I remember a company that was in Arizona and what they used to do is they, they, they sold, um, they were a dealer for Sunrun. They're not Sunrun, but they were somebody that sold Sunrun. Right, that was their big thing. So they weren't, they weren't Sunrun. I just want to make that very clear. I'm not disparaging Sunrun, uh, but but they used to do is tell people hey, you know, we're, we're here in the neighborhood and we're going to take a look at your roof and stuff and we're going to do an inspection to see how things are going. Energy efficient, wise, can you sign this and approve for us to come out and do that? Wow, and people would sign it and they didn't realize they were signing to buy a system and they had no clue.
Speaker 3:They just signed it.
Speaker 2:And next thing you know they're doing a site survey, which is what they thought they were coming out to survey the house. But that survey was to put solar on the house, right, so totally deceptive. And all of a sudden the truck's arriving with solar. It's like what are you talking about? Yeah, we're here to mount this on your roof. Yeah, we're going to mount this for you. Oh, this is part of the survey. Don't worry about the bill you're.
Speaker 3:I get it because sales people know that homeowners, 99% of the time they don't read everything they sign. I'm sure you're guilty of it. I'm guilty of it. You see these long documents. You kind of know what you're getting into.
Speaker 2:I'm a reader, I know.
Speaker 3:Me too. For the most part, if I'm buying something new that I'm not familiar with, I'll read it. No-transcript system. I never had solar in my house. I never tell this company or this install or whatever. I'm reading that, yeah, every page. I am too. You're not going to get me to sign right then. And there I'm, like I will take a month to read this, thank you.
Speaker 2:A friend of my wife's called us. This is two weeks ago, maybe three weeks ago. She's like hey, you know, this guy came by and told me that he's working with the utility and we'll get into that. I know you've talked about that and they have this great program they put together but they're only giving away a few in our neighborhood and it's basically a free battery. She already has solar on her house, right, and they knew that. And they said yeah, but we're just going to give you a free battery. All you got to do is sign. I said, well, tell him to send you the contract and then send it to me, Let me look at it. So they did, and what they were doing is signing up for a lease for an 8K system with two batteries.
Speaker 3:And none of it was free. Sure, it was about 300 bucks a month, yeah.
Speaker 2:Companies don't give away $10,000 products for free. Yeah, they might go out of business if they just did that. When you see the word free, know that it's not free. Someone else is paying for it. Someone's paying for it. It's usually you. Usually you, yes, usually you.
Speaker 3:And a lot of stuff that we're going to talk about comes from personal experience, stuff that we've seen in the industry, stuff that I personally see. For example, before I was with Harmon, I was with another solar company, which I won't mention. I left there because they were just telling me to be dishonest. I remember they were blatantly saying you need to say this if you want to get sales. And I would push back and go, but that's not true. And they would say we don't care, this is what you need to say. And that's when I said all right, I'm out, I'm done, I can't do this. You know, we would, you know, go into our meetings and it would just be a rah, rah, hype you up, let's get out there and knock doors and do this and say that and do this. And I was like no, this is, this is not right. And if you watch online, that's what you see.
Speaker 2:That's what you see. You see them in a room going rah, rah, rah.
Speaker 3:Let's go gang, let's go screw people, yeah let's celebrate our big paycheck fridays and stuff like that. Like why, what do we do? What are we celebrating here?
Speaker 2:you know it goes back to our last zoom cast.
Speaker 2:Member provost yeah, and pre-vote yeah pre-vote I'm sorry, and who they were dealing with, and they're dealing with a lot of these people, so they're the end result of somebody that's going through what we're about to talk about. Yeah, which is very typical, right, and you saw what he said, how many they were running into, especially in Texas, sure, sure, which makes sense, because there's one company we were looking at that's doing this online is from Texas, right? So, yeah, I can kind of see that, and we kind of hit on the first one a tiny bit already. You know, beware Lie. Number one is it's free, right, right, we know it's nothing Like you just said nothing's free.
Speaker 3:And we see that all the time on social media ads and you know, door knockers and people call, calling you like no, no, no, don't worry. So this solar system is free, it's free, it's free. Trust me, it's not free. The company does not keep the lights on by giving away free systems.
Speaker 2:Someone's paying for it, and it's it's you, it's when someone says that something is free, Say let me see the contract.
Speaker 3:Yeah, let me see what I'm signing, see if it's actually free.
Speaker 2:That's the key. That was just like the lady that I talked about, our friend who's it's free, it's free, I free, it's free. I didn't even realize I was getting into number one, but yeah, that's number one. First thing I did was let me see the contract and, after reading it, realized it was a 25 year lease for 300 bucks a month. That's how free it was. So you have to be able to stop, pause and go start asking the questions. First of all, nothing's free. You know nothing's free. I know nothing's free. Let me see what I have to sign. I want to see it and go away because I want to see it. Yeah, and go away because I want to take my time to read it. I'm not doing it right this second. You're going to send it to me. I'll read it and then, if it's something that I'm interested in, I'll let you know.
Speaker 3:Right, and the saying, you know, oh, it's too good to be true. Sometimes that applies in solar, sometimes that doesn't apply in solar. You know if they're saying it's, but I've sat in some homes where people looked at the proposal that I've given them and they go this is too good to be true. I'm like well, it is true. And here's the facts. I can provide every bit of information. This is exactly what you're getting into. This is exactly what to expect. I've explained it in a way that it makes sense to them, and that's when they're saying things like this is too good to be true. Why doesn't everyone do this? I'm like well, that's a good question. You didn't have me explain to you.
Speaker 2:That's why I would say because not everybody's going to be in the same boat you're in, not everybody is you? How many times have we talked about in this podcast? This is a it's not a cookie cutter situation. So right, it's always customized to you and what you do, your house, et cetera. So it's never it's. It could be too good to be terrible for your neighbor.
Speaker 3:Right, You're like, yeah, I was just at your neighbor's house and I told them no, I'm at your house and I'm saying yes.
Speaker 2:So if you fit into the too good to be true, I mean, there's categories. There's that too good to be true. There's that yeah, this is actually pretty good for me. There's this like yeah, it's okay, I can save some money and it's too good to be true.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think a lot of it comes from the difference between the proposal and the contract too. From what we see On a proposal, it shows you your system size and how much it's producing and your savings and all that stuff. Here's probably the thing that nobody wants to. No sales reps wants me to say. Sales reps can manipulate that, what I know what. You can change all kinds of numbers and make it look great and flashy and your savings is phenomenal and you know every year you can buy a Lamborghini because that's how much money you've saved. On the contract, though that's something that you're signing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, proposals are estimations based on what that company and the software tool that they use inputs into it. Correct, so I would say the biggest contributors, two contributing factors to that. Factor number one would be the amount of escalation by utility year over year. Until, I would say recently, utilities didn't used to increase very much, about a 2.5%, 2.75% on average. It was all over the place, yeah, but it was never really crazy, right, right. In the last five years it's gotten nuts. Sure, it's 15%, 18% I mean. So I think we use between 4% and 5% for that escalation rate, which is conservative but fair right If someone's putting 9% or 10% in that escalation piece, if the software will even allow it.
Speaker 2:just make sure you look and see what is my overall savings over a period of time. What is that escalation rate based at? It should be there, right. If it's not there? Number one, that's a red flag, sure. Number two ask the question and see what kind of answer you get.
Speaker 3:I bet you you'll get 5% is what they'll tell you, yeah, and when you're looking at the proposal and they don't have, you sign it and review it, all that stuff. But then you sign the contract. You want to make sure that those two are matching. The proposal says I'm getting this system, it's producing this or it's costing this. What am I actually going to sign, though? What am I actually getting? That's the important thing.
Speaker 2:And the other factor is shading Sure.
Speaker 1:That's a big one.
Speaker 2:I live in a forest. You can't even see my roof, but I got 100% sun access.
Speaker 3:I actually dealt with that yesterday with a customer. They had me do a proposal and they said I got this proposal from this other company. I took a look at it and go they didn't account for the trees that you have. Sure, your production is really high, but my production is coming in like 5,000 kilowatt hours less. I'm sorry, I'm honest.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's funny, People will sit there and look at that and you can tell them that and they'll still go buy the other one. I know They'll go buy the other one Because they think it's going to get more. It's producing more. It's saving me more. Remember, there's no production guarantee, so producers he's going to make it say whatever he needs it to say. So you assign right and then when you get mad in about six months he's going to be like that's just an estimate, right, right that's nothing legally.
Speaker 2:You're, you're, yeah, you're kind of you know, unless you call our buddies, you know, but other than that you're kind of in a bad place yeah, good, good, good.
Speaker 3:Segue into our next one, though the. Oh, you'll have no utility bill. That's lie number two. That's lie number two. No utility bill. Yeah, not gonna. You're gonna have no utility bill.
Speaker 2:That's lie number two, that's lie number two no utility bill. Yeah, you're going to have a zero bill. Heck, you're going to even have a negative bill all the time.
Speaker 3:And you're going to get a check at the end of the year. Yeah, and all that fun stuff Lie. Those days again this is all I know. We're, you know, coming nationally and we're throwing this out to everyone. That's true, it's going to depend on utility rates and all that stuff. But here in Arizona we have two big utility companies and from what I've seen on most recent installs you're going to have a bill. The days of not having a bill in solar it's tougher here. Those are gone.
Speaker 2:I mean I think you even did a test on having a 200% offset, a big system that produces twice what their total usage was, Yep, and they still had a bill. I mean it was small.
Speaker 3:Right Sure and the cost of the system. Obviously you have to take that into account, but they still had a bill.
Speaker 2:Since we are nationwide. I was talking to a friend of mine in Texas who wants to go solar and I kind of helped him with a proposal that was put together that I looked at it and they had told him that he would have no bill. And I looked at it and it's 103% offset, right so and I looked at it and I showed him. On the proposal there's a, there's a monthly grid and it shows consumption, so how much, how much power they use and production, how much solar is produced. And I showed him that there were months March, april, may in his area in Texas where his production was way outweighing his consumption. Sure, so in those months it's very plausible he could have no bill, or even a negative bill Very possible In those months, in those months In those months.
Speaker 2:And then I showed him months like January and February where his production was this and his usage was this. And I said in those months you're going was this and his usage was this. And I said in those months you're going to have a pretty good size bill, no doubt about it, I go. And in the rest of the year it was almost equaled out. I said does?
Speaker 3:the thing produce at night, he's like no, I said.
Speaker 2:hmm, I said you're going to have a bill. It probably won't be huge, it's going to be smaller, but you're going to have a bill and overall you could save money. But get out of your head that you're not going to have a bill. It's true for a few months a year on your situation, but that's it and that'll be offset by January and February, which are going to destroy you, right, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so 100% offset doesn't mean 100% offset of your bill, right, it's 100% offset of your energy usage. But again, your energy usage is going to fluctuate throughout the day and the night and the year and the month and all that stuff. So you will have a bill.
Speaker 2:Right, we don't have those nighttime solar panels anymore. They all. We're out of them. We ran out.
Speaker 3:We sold the last one.
Speaker 2:I know it's rough.
Speaker 3:Put them on your house. I think I did, I did, maxed it out.
Speaker 2:So if anyone ever tells you that you're not going to have a bill, just know that that's just not true In Arizona, that's absolutely not true. To Ben's point, there may be some states I know there is some states where they have what's called SRECs and other things that you get to where yeah, I mean solar is it's almost free. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Those places Right.
Speaker 2:But I'm talking Massachusetts, I'm talking to Northeast, so it's a little different up there.
Speaker 3:But yeah, but like like Ralph said, again, it depends on your utility company when you got solar and and all those other aspects. Cause I do run into those cases where people say like, oh, you know, oh, here in in Arizona, my I'm an APS and my neighbor he never has a bill. So then I ask him when did he get solar? Oh, he got solar in 2006. Okay, well, he's grandfathered in. Therefore, that rate no longer exists. You and your situation, it's going to be different. So, like I said earlier, the days of not having a bill, those are gone. I'm sorry you missed it.
Speaker 2:In Arizona, in Arizona, in Arizona In. Arizona you missed it In Arizona, in Arizona, in Arizona and even in most of the country, you could build a system in Arizona that could have some months like that Not very many, but because we got great production, like in March and April, sure, and depending on what you consume, it's very possible, it's plausible, that you could have a zero bill or maybe even a negative bill.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you definitely can have negative bills in those months. Talk to me in the summer, because the system ain't going to be able to produce.
Speaker 2:There's no way, right, it's 110 at night. Okay, lie number three this is one of my favorite. This is a good one. It's your favorite lie the government is paying for your system.
Speaker 3:I've seen that too.
Speaker 2:You know how the?
Speaker 3:government. They love just handing us free things.
Speaker 2:And what they're talking about. Typically they're trying to talk about the tax credits, because there is a federal tax credit as we record today. Right, we know that that's probably going to be gone by the end of this year, by the end of this podcast. It's true, the Senate did pass it today, but we're still going back to the House. But that doesn't mean that the government's paying for your system. It's just a subsidy where they give you 30% and again you have to qualify for that 30%. We've had all those podcasts, don't want to get into that.
Speaker 3:It's related to the it's free thing, people are like okay, I know it's not free, but I don't want to pay for it. There's a lot of upfront costs. Those door knockers or cold callers or whatever. They'll say like no, no, no, no. You know, with all these government things and this and that it's free to you, just someone else is paying for it. The government's paying for it, right?
Speaker 2:for you. There's a state it's most states have a state credit. There's the federal credit, as we speak today, and then there are states that have township subsidies or utility subsidies. So these are the things you have to look into wherever you're watching this podcast. Whatever state you're in, you need to do the research and see what your state offers, because every state is different. I can tell you, in Arizona, it's up to a thousand dollar tax credit and the federal credit and that's it. There's no utility incentives. There's nothing. Yeah, so, but it all does depend on what state you live in. So that's what they're trying to talk about. They're just wording it in a very deceptive way, especially if you look at the ads on Facebook. You know, in your state my favorite one is because I live in Peoria They'll say Peoria incentives will pay for you, and it's just a bunch of lies. It's not true, it's clickbait. There is no government program that pays for your solar system. There's not a hundred percent tax credit. There's not. It's not that high it doesn't exist.
Speaker 2:Okay, right now there's a 30, which probably won't exist at some point yeah, um.
Speaker 2:So yeah, just know that when you see the word government, it's a lie. It's a hundred percent lights. I guess it's not really a lie, it's misleading, it's very lie. It's a hundred percent lights. I guess it's not really a lie, it's misleading, it's very misleading. It's very misleading. Yeah, yeah, you know, it's like one of the things that I told my wife in order to get her to go out with me. They're a little misleading, right, just a little, you're still misleading her 30 something years later.
Speaker 2:All right, next one, oh lie, number four I love this one.
Speaker 3:What four you have to sign today.
Speaker 2:Today.
Speaker 3:Today.
Speaker 3:You have to Because you know what the paper dissolves tonight. It's going to this message will self-destruct in five seconds. I always laugh because you know when people say like, oh, you have to sign today. Why do I have to sign today? Is your company going out of business tomorrow? Usually that's the reason why most of your paying cash.
Speaker 3:Again, it's a sales tactic and I'm sorry to all these. You know gurus in the industry kind of exposing your secrets and you know showing you what's behind the curtain. It's a sales tactic. Tactic because they know people have that fear of missing out. They don't want to lose this deal. Um, you know they come to the home like, oh, we're only, we're only in your neighborhood today and if you say no, the price is going to go up. All these scare tactics is what they're doing. I'm telling you that's not true. I guarantee if they tell you you can only do this today and you tell them, no, get out of my house and they leave and you call them tomorrow and say, hey, I want to do this now, they're not going to go. Nope, the deal was only yesterday and you missed it. They said they were only in my neighborhood today. No, you call them up tomorrow. I guarantee they're going to go. All right, we'll still do it.
Speaker 2:But if I call the next day, they said the deal expired in 24 hours. No, that's again scare tactics and all that stuff I saw the paper. It said it expired in 24 hours.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's probably expiring today, because you get those companies that do those blitzes, as they're called. Again, sorry, people in those industries, but I'm just telling you what it is. You get these people from out of state and they fly to your state. They really don't know what's going on in your utility and how to sell it and all that stuff. Their goal is to try to make as much money as possible, get you to sign contracts and then they're gone. That's it. When they come to your house, they knock on your door and they're like hey, we're with this company, we're doing this install. You know, you got a site here today. We're all in the neighborhood today, all that stuff. Yeah, because that sales rep might only be there today because they're flying out.
Speaker 2:But they said they were only picking five houses in the neighborhood and they said Nancy and Tom already did it. I have no idea who Nancy and Tom are, but but they said they already did it. So there's only four spots left.
Speaker 3:That is a real, real sales tactic, I know, and that was the reason why I left my previous company. It's because they said you need to tell them that we're only doing four homes in your neighborhood. So I go, okay, so if I get four homes, do I just stop? Is that? It Like, what if I go to the fifth home? What if the fifth home wants it? And they're like, well, yeah, you can do that. Like that's dishonest, that's that's not right. Right, you're gonna sell five, six, seven, eight homes if you want, yeah, but you tell people we're only doing four. Because it's again that scare tactic, that fear of missing out. Oh, we want to be part of that exclusive club. And my neighbor who you just threw out a random name at, they already got it too. Again, those are all sales tactics, you know, trying get you to sign.
Speaker 2:And one of the things that I like about how we do stuff we encourage people to get a second or third opinion. Go get a second quote, a third quote, it's fine. Go take a look at what other people will offer you and then come back and talk to me about it. I encourage that. People that encourage that you could probably trust them a little bit more. People that don't want you to look at anybody else there's a reason for it.
Speaker 3:I was talking with a customer today right before the show, and I've been talking to them since October. Yeah, a mass comment. The deal did not expire. Right, our pricing and panels and things like that have changed.
Speaker 1:Quit making change.
Speaker 3:But I've updated them on all the different changes because we've had questions. We're going back and forth, but I didn't just leave them hanging and say, no, you need to sign today, in October. No, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Speaker 2:Like, hey, I'm going to be here for you, we're sticking around, we're not going anywhere and if there's front that you're going to make a decision today, we're going to do this today, or I'm not wasting my time talking to you. That was kind of his attitude about it. I was like what a douche. What do you mean? I mean, he, he, he cared less about that customer right. You're going to not waste my time. I need to sell. You know I could just brag about it. He would sell, you know, two $300,000 a month. You know $40,000, $50,000 a month selling solar and they have zero referrals.
Speaker 2:Zero referrals because that's not about referrals, it's about moving to the next guy and the next guy Right, because nobody wants to deal with you afterwards. So I just man, I see that online. I'm like what a douche. I can't believe they're out there promoting this stuff. But you know, they absolutely are.
Speaker 2:You know, and I'll give, these guys were a scam. As soon as we found it, obviously we went after it and all that. But they were going to people's houses that had solar. So that was their target was you had solar. And they would go and say, hey, we've been looking at your production and we noticed there's an issue, so we need to come do a inspection of your system, right. And then they would make them sign something which was basically for a new solar system. And then they would direct all the phone calls from the installer to phony numbers, and so they would say they were the customer. They would say they knew what they had bought. Customer never received the phone call. It was always this company's, you know, derailing that phone to one of their calls, one of their places, and they had people that were just sit there and respond, and so to the point where the then that we would go out and install it and just about to and you had never talked to a customer, even though you thought you talked to them all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was total lie. Yeah, and the reasons companies do that I'll give you a real benefit benefit they do that is they get some paid, some money up front, so they've gotten their up front money and then by the time you figure out who they are, they're gone. Yeah, so that's the way that they go after us, to try to go after us. But they also put that customer through a bunch of turmoil and garbage because now it's like all this stuff's been laid out.
Speaker 3:It's like, wow, people are dirty in this industry yeah, yeah, related to that, let me tell you about permit poachers.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah, that's a good one that's a good one.
Speaker 3:I had a experience with this. I had one of my customers, you know they they signed up with Harmon, everything was moving smoothly, all that stuff, right. The customer called me one day and said, hey Ben, I didn't know we're going to be changing panels, changing our modules, and I was like, well, you didn't hear it from me, so I don't know what you're talking about. He was like, yeah, someone called me. They said they're from Harman and they had to adjust the contract and we're going with different modules. It's going to be a little bit of a cheaper price and all that stuff.
Speaker 3:But you know, we had this discussion. I wanted these modules and this is how I wanted it. And he was saying that you know he's from Harmon. He literally said he's from Harmon and this is how it's going on. So I later found out that this company they find out who is getting permits in this jurisdiction. You can pull that person's information, find out. You know who the company is doing. The install their name, their address, their phone number, the email. They're calling these potential customers and trying to steal that business by saying that they are that company.
Speaker 2:There are two companies in Arizona that that's their tactic.
Speaker 3:And it just makes me think they're only doing this because obviously they're successful. Well, yeah, I got that call from the homeowner and I'm just thinking how many other people have they done this to? It's true, how many of the successful stories do they have? The only reason why this was stopped is because my homeowner called me and said this doesn't sound right. I'm going to call my sales rep. That's how we found out about it. Every time it's yeah, permit poachers.
Speaker 2:So that's a very common practice in solar.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know if I can't sleep at night, knowing if I'd be doing that to somebody you know I mean, I couldn't either that's just anyway, next lie next one it adds fifty thousand dollars to your home value. I bought a fifty thousand dollar system. It's gonna add fifty thousand dollars to my home. It absolutely will not.
Speaker 2:It does not do that can it add value to your system absolutely to your house? I mean absolutely. Um that, can it add value to your system Absolutely To your house? I mean absolutely. That's something that, in the 12 years that I've been doing this, home inspectors have been kind of battling back and forth with, trying to figure out what a true value is and put a value on the system. Ten years ago they didn't even value the systems at all. They felt they had no value to them because they didn't understand it Right. They've done the work to understand it a little better now across the country and I feel like now they are starting to add value to it, especially if it's a cash purchase system.
Speaker 2:Finance ones not as much. Yes and no. Yes and no. Everything's going to vary. It's going to vary, right Leases? Absolutely not Because there's. It's not yours, it's not yours, you're just renting it. That's different. That value of that is more of the savings on the utility bill that you would try to sell as a homeowner, but it does not add what you pay for, right? That's ridiculous, but people say that all the time. That's a really common one that I hear.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Even just providing, like I know, if you buy a $50,000 system, it's not going to add $50,000 to your home. I would even question any number that a sales rep gives you. If they say like, oh, you're buying this $50,000 system, it's going to add $20,000 to your home, I would be like where'd you get that number? Yeah, How'd you? How'd you come up with that? Show me the facts. Show me the facts that that's what it does.
Speaker 2:Does. Here's a good example. So if I, if I redo my kitchen, I spend a hundred thousand dollars on my kitchen, does it add value to my house? Sure, does it add a hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 3:No, exactly.
Speaker 2:If I redo my bathroom? Same scenario, right, same scenario. Exactly. You can add value to your home, but you're never going to get dollar for dollar value in anything that you do in home improvement. We all know that. Right, right, same thing. So this doesn't play any differently. So don't ever take a value quote from a salesperson who thinks he knows yeah, because he doesn't. Absolutely not. There's so many factors it depends on, so that's a good one.
Speaker 3:That's a really common one too, okay another one, um, that I've seen pretending to be from the utility company yeah, I love that with a badge and everything they got. Yeah, like, oh, I'm, I'm so-and-so from aps and I'm here to inspect you know your, your roof and you know all this stuff. We're doing this program to get you solar to help reduce your bill. Obviously, you're going to answer your door when you see someone with a utility company logo on their shirt.
Speaker 3:Yeah, here I am. There are companies that do that. Yes, they say I'm working with this company, I'm working with APS or I'm working with SRP. No, they're not. They might be a preferred installer, like on their website, right, which we are, but I guarantee that those preferred installers aren't going out there and doing those shady tactics. We're not going to go out there and pretend like we're from AP.
Speaker 2:The utility is not going to knock on your door and try to sell you solar Right. That should be a red flag for you right off the bat. A lot of them will sit there and say, without even a tag or anything they're going to say we work with this utility, we work with that utility, we're a partner. Right, work with a. We work with this utility, we work with that utility, we're a partner. That was what they had told that lady friend of ours. They were partnering with the utility to do this program. No, you're not, because there's no program.
Speaker 2:What you best for you to do, number one is close the door. But secondarily is you can go online to the utility and, like Ben just said, there's always a preferred partner list of who they work with and you'll like if you were to do that over here, you would find Harmon on those websites because we're preferred partners with the utility. What does that really mean? It just means we're a qualified installer. They have a program that you have to go through to be qualified. In their eyes, can someone else outside of that list install your solar? Yeah, of course they can. But the utility would rather you go through one of their partners because they trust them and they know there's not going to be issues I know probably 99 of people.
Speaker 3:When they have someone come to the door and you see them on their like little segue or they have their clipboard, whatever, 99 homeowner's probably just ignore, they don't answer it, they pretend like they're not home, all that stuff. Yeah, I'm that one guy.
Speaker 2:You have to answer. I answer it because you want to see what he's gonna say I answered every.
Speaker 3:I don't care what they're selling, I'll answer it. I'll talk with you. I'll invite you in, especially if you're a solar rep. Oh, come on in, those are my favorite. Come on in, sit down, let's have a talk. You don't know who I am. You don't know that I have a podcast about solar. So let's talk and then you know I usually like well, I'll educate them afterwards. I was like you know everything you said was fine in your book, but let me tell you the reality of things.
Speaker 3:Let me tell you how things work, and people would tell you know friends and family like Ben, that's mean.
Speaker 2:No, it's not.
Speaker 3:I was like no, I'm trying to help the industry.
Speaker 2:It's not Cause you know what they always say, cause I did, I'd do that to the solar guys that come First of all. I go. You realize I have solar in my house, right? Oh, I didn't. Yeah, I said so just so you know. When you go to bed tonight you're deceiving people and what they're telling you. Yeah, this is the reality and you figure out what you want to do from here. That's all I can do is help you, right and then done.
Speaker 2:I'm doing a service right. You're welcome, because there are genuinely a lot of these are young kids and they really don't know. They don't, yeah. They only know what they're told.
Speaker 3:Yes, they're not malicious, they're not. It's the people that train them that do know better.
Speaker 2:It's the guy coming in behind that person. That's the dirt bell. He's the scumbag. Yeah, he's the guy that knows that he's going to mess you up. He's going to take you for what he can. That's the guy. Yeah, this guy's just being, he's just doing what he's told.
Speaker 1:He's doing his job and it's a hard job, knocking doors, sure, sure door knocking is tough.
Speaker 2:We've had door knocking crews here before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you remember that I mean and it's.
Speaker 2:It's a tough gig to run because it's number one it's hard to find people that want to go knock doors when it's 100 degrees outside yep, 120 degrees outside. Number two is trying to keep those people honest too, because you know they are so badly trained from other people they worked with that they tend to fall back into those scripts and it doesn't really work.
Speaker 3:You have to retrain them.
Speaker 2:And it's tough.
Speaker 3:I remember talking with some of them and they would say, like I learned more in you know the hour talking with you than I did, that my previous company that I was with for an hour or for a year, yeah, like well, yeah, because they were just trying to get you to sign on the dotted line. We're trying to teach you solar.
Speaker 2:It's hard to reprogram people, I know I guess would be the word to use.
Speaker 3:Yeah, probably one of the biggest things. And again, this is just a shifted mentality for me. I hate when salespeople use the word close. Okay, I don't like it when people are closed. I mean, you think about it, you as a homeowner, do you want? I'm very close.
Speaker 2:That's different, that's different.
Speaker 3:Like me when I'm talking with a homeowner. I'm more into opening up a relationship with him, Like, hey, we're in this together for the next 25, 30, 40 years, or whatever. You can always call me. I give them my personal cell. You have my email address, you know where I work, you can always call me. And I still get customers call me five, 10 years later just asking questions. I do too. I open up relationships. I don't close it. I don't say hey, thanks for signing on the dotted line, You'll never hear from me again. That's, that's just not who I am. So the term oh, I closed this or I closed so many deals to me that just seems very scumbag ish.
Speaker 2:Sales is a relationship. Yeah, if you don't trust me, why would you buy anything from?
Speaker 3:me.
Speaker 2:Right, so I can. Can those people? They, they try to come off as they're these. You can just tell how phony they are when they're talking to you. They're so phony, I know, but there's so many people that fall for that. I don't. I don't get that. But I mean, you see people on the internet. They get scammed out of their you know and whatever from the people in india and other places.
Speaker 3:I mean people are just susceptible to getting scammed, I guess, especially elderly people I had a guy, probably a little over a year ago, asked me his opinion on two different electric cars that he wanted to buy. We don't sell electric cars here, by the way, no, but he was my customer, my solar customer, that I've had him you know, he was a solar customer of mine for the past 10 years. But again, like ralph said, he trusts me, he knows like I can look into details, I research, research things. So he said, hey, I'm debating between these two cars. In your opinion, which one would you get? Those are the type of relationships that you want. That's cool. I like that Not. I closed this deal. He signed it Bye.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that guy that works with these companies that are deceptive. He can care less about you. You're just nothing more than a commission to him, and once you sign on the dotted line, all he cares about is getting that thing on your roof as fast as possible so you can't turn back and he can collect his money yeah, he makes a hundred grand a month right, but he has to do that every month because he gets no referrals, right?
Speaker 2:or yeah, you have put down here door knockers that um ask to inspect your panels. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. They have no clue what a panel looks like yep, you got a panel, that and we're talking about electric panel, that's what it looks like yeah yeah, so we're talking about the actual electric panel, your breakers and stuff.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna tell you right now none of those guys have a clue, yeah, none. So what they do is this is a very, this is a very basic tactic is they go there, they look at it and they look at the round and they go take some pictures.
Speaker 1:They open it up and they go, hmm breakers.
Speaker 3:And they take some pictures.
Speaker 2:Oh, we've got some spaces there. That's good. So you've got a couple of spaces, because we're going to need to put a breaker there at 60-amp back feet. Yeah, okay, yeah, this is great.
Speaker 3:No clue what he's looking at. I've dealt with that personally. I've been in homes where they would say do you want to look at my service panel? Be like no. And they're like the other two companies did it like yeah, I'll be honest with you, I don't know what I'm looking at. That's. We have a design team, we have auditors to come out and they know what they're looking for. I'm gonna look at and just be like cool they're gonna pull the dead front off.
Speaker 2:They're gonna do load calcs, yeah, to see what works and what doesn't work. Ain't nobody else taking a picture going? Yep, I got that figured out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've been doing this for you know, 10, 11 years and I don't know what I'm looking.
Speaker 2:I mean do we want pictures? Other thing? Of course we do, because we have other things we're looking at. But that door knocker or that, that scummy sales guy who's sitting there going oh yeah, let me go look at that, oh my goodness. And then they take a look at your roof and go it's a roof, yeah, I mean, that looks good man. Oh my gosh, that is solar friendly, right he?
Speaker 3:happens to be an electrical engineer a structural engineer and doing solar.
Speaker 2:He doesn't see that dip in the middle.
Speaker 3:He doesn't see that mold up there or in all those.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's so funny the tactics that they go through to try to make him. They try to validate themselves to you. But there's some kind of expert. Most of the guys that sell in this industry for those kind of companies come off and sell and use cars, yeah. Yeah, they have no clue about solar. Yep, it's funny.
Speaker 3:How about this one? Actually, I dealt with it yesterday with the customer Lowball proposals, or proposals that are incorrect. They get them to sign on the contract. Here's why they do that. And again, sorry if I'm exposing you, but oh well, they get them to sign the contract. So the homeowner is invested. Maybe they're doing a cash purchase. They put their down payment down.
Speaker 3:We've started the process, we've done our inspection and now we come out and go oh, by the way, we have to change this because you know we didn't account for the setbacks, or you have this or this. Now you have to change it. The homeowner is already so invested into it. They've already been a month into this, so they're. Do I really want to cancel this contract or do I want to just sign this change order for $10,000 more? Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's what these sales companies will do. They know that this is not going to fly, but it's going to get you to sign because you're not going to want to sign with somebody else and do this whole rigmarole thing again. So, yeah, I had a customer where I looked at his proposal and you know I'm probably talking about. He had modules that just wouldn't fly because they were past. The fire code setbacks, the, the spacing of everything was wrong. He didn't account for shade.
Speaker 2:And I said, you know, to be honest, this is this would never, this would never fly as far as install, because all they're trying to do is they're trying to get you to sign so they can come back and redo it the right way and charge you more for it. That's, that's probably the most common practice you'll ever see. Yeah, it's so true. When we, when we give um, I think we're starting to do that now is we actually outline the setbacks on the proposals? Yeah, so you can see a panel's not in it and what a setback is. Just go back up a second. There has to be spacing on the roof for the fire department. If there's a fire or something, that they can get up there and that they can walk around the roof a path to walk.
Speaker 3:Because they're not going to walk on the modules.
Speaker 2:Right. So there has to be a path up there and they do that by creating a spacing like three foot from the top and around different areas. So what companies do, like he says they put the panels all through there, I've like he says they put the panels all through there, I've seen panels floating before not even on the roof, hanging off the edge like halfway off the roof just so they can get you to sign it, like he said, and that's exactly what they do.
Speaker 2:We've had people that have actually said I'm gonna go with them because it's just a better, they can get more panels on the roof and I want more panels. It's a bigger system then you get that call back and say, well, they couldn't do it. Well, no kidding, I told you, yeah, yeah you can't magically make a panel float. We haven't figured that part out yet. So that's a really good point. That happens probably more than not.
Speaker 3:Yeah, always breaking into the fire setbacks To make the proposal look fantastic, to get you to sign.
Speaker 2:And then you have a point here disguising leases or PPAs as ownership. That's a big one too. So a lease is obviously it's not yours, you don't own it, the company owns it and you're basically just paying for the power and usually a good reduce rate, a set rate, hopefully not an escalated rate. There are different leases we can talk about later, we have talked about, but anyway, if they sit there and tell you you own this system, yet you sign a lease, that's like going to get a car and you're leasing it, but you actually think you're owning it. You don't own it, it's theirs. I've seen that twice I think in the last six months, where someone signed one for a lease. They thought it was ownership.
Speaker 3:They thought they were owning it.
Speaker 1:They thought, because they tried to take a tax credit for it and they were told you can't take the tax credit for it because you don't own it.
Speaker 2:So make sure you know what you're signing. I mean you have to read the paperwork and see. It'll say it says lease 25-year, lease 20-year lease, whatever it is. It says it. You'll know if you're financing it. But you've got again. It's so important to read the paperwork, don't just sign something.
Speaker 3:So I know this is a lot of information, a lot of things to look out for, but as a homeowner, what can you do? What can you do, I'd say, obviously, ask questions.
Speaker 2:Of course, ask questions. We just said it. You don't sign anything until you've read it, yeah, and if you don't feel comfortable reading it, have someone else read it for you.
Speaker 3:I'm putting this out there. Send it to me, I'll read it no-transcript.
Speaker 2:People trying to help the industry. We're our. Our following is growing, so you're asking us off a lot of phone calls.
Speaker 3:We're not going to flash my phone number.
Speaker 2:I already did Dang it, it's there, it's right by your shoe and the email address it's right by your shoe and my ripped jean it's right there.
Speaker 3:No, but I think that's doing a service to the industry to let you know, get second opinions. Call other solar companies, get more quotes. Call us get a quote from us or have us look at your quotes. You know it hurts us if you do it the wrong way.
Speaker 2:And the world of what I call dealer partners, which is the world we live in today, which I think will change soon. Know who's installing your system. They're not. They're typically just a group of people that go out there and knock doors and sell solar and they have a company they work with. Know who that is and do your research on that company. Make sure they're a good installer. Understand the warranties that they give you.
Speaker 2:So remember you have two sets of warranties. You have the warranties you're going to get from the equipment. So you have your panel warranties, you have your inverter warranties. That's the basic stuff. And then you have the warranties that you're going to get from the installer. What's their workmanship warranty? Is it for parts and labor? Is it just labor? Um, is it just parts? I mean just, hey, I'll go up there and fix that cable, but I'm going to charge you for my guy's rose truck and for that guy to get on your roof. Understand the warranties that you're getting from that installer. That's really important. So when you're taking and reading everything, you have to look at that stuff. It's critical. We give a 25-year workmanship warranty. That's pretty impressive, yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of companies out there that say they give a lifetime workmanship and lifetime this and most of them run a business right now.
Speaker 3:So that life is over.
Speaker 2:It's their lifetime, right, not not your lifetime, so to that point is how long has that installer been in business? Are they just a bunch of guys that are traveling through the state and they're using somebody else's master GC license and they're installing solar?
Speaker 1:Very common nowadays Very, very common?
Speaker 2:Or are there a company that's in the state, like we are, that's been around for a long time, like we have? Those things are important, they're really important Because, remember, if they're just moving around and they haven't been around very long, and they install your system and something goes wrong, and I can think of this in Oklahoma, a company that was doing installs that they're gone now and those customers are all left holding the. They're holding it now. There's nothing they can do about it. And it was one of those companies fly by night. They just kind of went from state to state.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we have a lot of solar companies, probably 2020, 2021. I think in Arizona there was over 400 solar companies 460 something. But there was only what 50 installers. Think about that 400 companies but 50 installers. I don't think there was 50 installers, I think it was less than that.
Speaker 3:It was some dramatic difference. I know that. So again, like Ralph was saying, yes, you might have a solar company selling it to you and giving you the proposal, but find out who's doing your install, because at the end of the day, that's who you're married to.
Speaker 2:That's the guy putting the holes in your roof. That's the guy messing with your electrical box.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Right, make sure they know what they're doing, because otherwise you might wake up to a burning inferno. I mean, you know, just saying I've seen firehouse fires because of solar Sure.
Speaker 3:Sure.
Speaker 2:So I mean that's the guy that's putting it on your roof. Do you want all that weight up there and do you want lot of companies that cut corners because it's all about the?
Speaker 3:dollar amount. Right, trying to get done faster, trying to get cheaper, trying to get this, trying to that, and guess what?
Speaker 2:now they're trying to stay in business yeah, I mean ben said it earlier, I think I said it. No, solar can be an amazing thing for you if it's done honestly and it actually fits for you. It might it might it might not, but you got it. You've got to protect yourself. You know what. You guys can't play victim if you haven't done the things to protect yourself. And there's too many people out there that like to play victim, but they're a victim of themselves. Don't be a victim of yourself. Right, you control what you're going to buy, what you're not going to buy, what you're going to sign, who you're going to work with. We're arming you with all that information to make you, um, smarter, yeah, better, when it comes to buying solar. Right, there's no excuses, no excuses, no excuses. If you watch this podcast.
Speaker 3:If you watch this, there's no excuses don't become the victim, right?
Speaker 2:so that's really all I can say. Is you just got to watch out? I'm telling you, go online, go on instagram, go on those places and type in. You know, I don't know solar, what would type in? I don't want to give companies away, but we could like solar solar solar, sales solar solar sales, solar pitches, solar sales guys, solar script, solar script. Type that in on the internet and go see what you find.
Speaker 3:Go to.
Speaker 2:Instagram. Go to YouTube, go type that in and tell me I'm wrong, tell me you're not hearing everything we were just talking about. I guarantee you are All right. That's our show. That was good. That was a good show. I like it. Got it out, man. I was like, yeah right, I like that. I feel like I need to take a shower now though.
Speaker 3:Like, just talking about it makes me feel all dirty. It needs to be talked about, though. Yeah, it does it does.
Speaker 2:I still want to do an SRP podcast because things are changing in SRP. So if you're in Arizona and you're an SRP, the rules are all about the change for SRP and it changes dramatically what makes sense for you and if you have solo already in SRP, it's going to impact you in about four years.
Speaker 3:And we're always open to ideas. We look at our comments and whatnot. So if you have any ideas, comment below. If ideas for podcasts, we'll ignore most of them, I guess. So no, we won't.
Speaker 2:But we'll definitely. We're going to do an SRP podcast here real soon again and then we're definitely going to hit on the ITC and where it's at right. So we know that today the Senate just passed its version. It's going back to the House. We don't know what it's going going back and forth.
Speaker 2:We want it to be stable. We know what gets passed before we do a podcast on it, so we can be very clear to you guys about what it means. I can tell you this much Solar is not going anywhere. Solar will be around. It just will be different. That's just always what happens in this industry.
Speaker 3:We're not doing that scare tactic. Right, you have to sign today because the tax credit's going away.
Speaker 2:You might want to take a look at this.
Speaker 1:Now's a good time.
Speaker 2:Now's a good time to take a look, right? So it is, it's a good time to take a look at it, but and we'll get into detail there's a lot that goes into the changes that are going to happen, that you're going into before you sign anything with anybody once this goes down, so we'll have that next as well. Anyway, this was fun. Thanks for joining us. As always, you can like and subscribe to our podcast on YouTube. We're all over the place on Instagram and other places. You'll see us on Facebook, but follow our podcast. It's a good thing, man. We enjoy doing this and we're going to do a lot more.
Speaker 1:So thanks for joining us and we'll see you next time. See you, Bye. You've been listening to the Harmon Solar Podcast, with Ben and Ralph bringing clarity to the intersection of solar power and smart home ownership. If you found this episode helpful, don't forget to like, comment and subscribe, and also share the show with others navigating the solar journey. For questions and topic suggestions, call 800-281-3189 or visit harmandsolarcom. You can also connect with the team on social media. See you next episode.
